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That's what these things are for, right? =P
Ok, I really don't care whether you ship Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aerith. Whichever makes you happy. I know which one I ship, and I also know that the creators were purposely ambiguous in the game. If you want, you can ship Cloud/Barret and the game will give you "evidence" to support that, because they allowed you to go on a date with the man! Unless Nomura or some such comes out and explicitly states that Cloud loves <whoever>, and then goes on to explain that he loves <whoever> in an explicitly romantic, wants-her-to-have-his-babies way, this is a debate that nobody can win. And he better not use any ambiguous words. Anywhere. (People are arguing over what "koibito" means, and that one is literally "love person" so how confusing can it be?) And whoever makes the statement better be someone everyone believes has the authority to make said statement, or it'll just change the argument to whether our spokesperson is a reliable source.
Ahem. Anyway...
What I do care is that everytime I go to look up some facts -- so I can base my fiction, however loosely, on things that happened in the movie and games -- I run into this Clerith/Cloti war. Case in point? To the best of my knowledge, Marlene does not have a wolf ring. However, I read a comment somewhere that she does, so I went looking for a reference as to where you can see it in the movie. Instead, I found an extensive essay that claims to conclusively prove that people like myself are idiots, because there's no basis for Cloud/Tifa in the movie or games.
Most of what I read made me laugh, because the author used every trick in the book to win an argument on the basis of their ability to argue, and throw around volumes of information. This is sort of the same idea as someone winning an argument by talking faster and louder and longer than anyone else. They didn't really prove their point, or support their thesis... they just wore everyone else out. The author of said essay quoted only partial phrases, ignored phrases that disagreed with their opinion, and liberally sprinkled the whole with insulting/condescending remarks. What makes this particularly funny, to me, is that as ambiguous as the source material is, they could have "proven" their point without resorting to any of these tricks. It just wouldn't have convinced anyone who didn't already agree... but I doubt the one I found does either, so let's avoid the logical fallacies, name calling, and casting of aspersions.
Which is what upset me. The repeated use of "CloTis do this" and "CloTis say that". Where, please tell me, do these "CloTis" reside, as I have yet to encounter them. And I'm looking for them, 'cause I'd like them to provide me with something to read! Looking for images of Cloud and Tifa, I found a whole passel of "anti-cloti" banners; out of curiousity, I did a search for anti-clerith on the same site and found NOTHING. A search for "proof of Cloud/Tifa" on Google calls up a few fan sites (like the cloti community on Fanfiction.net) and -- surprise, surprise -- another essay attempting to prove that Cloud/Tifa is impossible. Yep. Another pro-Clerith essay. Except for a few polls and such -- in which both pairings had a very good showing -- I haven't seen much of anything in the way of discussion. Certainly nothing even approaching the vehemence with which people try to "prove" that Cloud/Aerith is canon, and that Tifa was just somewhere in the background. Nothing that meets the description of "rabid CloTis". But I have found several long rants and/or essays explaining why Clerith is canon, Cloti is crack, and implying that any Cloti fan is a rabid psycho. I'm actually really curious now, and would like to read whatever it is that the authors of these Clerith essays are responding to.
If CloTi fans are crawling out of the woodwork, with a huge 'net presence, why are the ones I know saying they can't find anything to read?
From what I've seen, the Clerith supporters are far more "rabid". As evidence I point to the aforementioned anti-cloti banners. Particularly the really offensive one which quotes Hitler and calls for the oppression of Cloti fans. Maybe they find that funny under the rock you crawled out from under, but there's nothing cute or clever or funny about it. It's just in extremely poor taste.
If there are "rabid CloTis" out there, looking for a fight, then it would be good for them to shut-up and quit giving the rest of us a bad name. But the rabid Clerith ones need to take their medicine, too. And yes, it still counts as rabid when you write pages and pages and pages on the subject, even if we can't see the foam.
I am not a rabid CloTi fan. I'm not interested in trying to prove that my position is valid -- beyond stating that I formed it from watching Advent Children alone (I had never played the game), so therefore it is possible to get Cloud/Tifa from the movie without having any preconcieved notions. This is not saying my position is right and yours is wrong. It's simply saying it can happen, so quit claiming it's not possible.
I am a cloti fan who would like to be able to do a search for info without finding anti-cloti propaganda. Particularly when I'm not even looking for anything cloti-related! Think of them as ice cream flavors, and Clerith is your favorite, and Cloti is mine. You wouldn't feel the need to write a diatribe about how crazy it was to like chocolate ice cream, just because you don't, would you?
Why can't we just agree to disagree and enjoy the fact that it's a great story, with great characters and great art?
Oh, and yeah, I didn't have to read it. Which is why I stopped after awhile. There is always the chance that they'll say something useful when quoting their "proof", though, so I did try to skim. All I found out, though (relating to rings, anyway) is that engagement rings are only ever worn on the left hand. Who knew? And that's probably snarky enough without me saying anything more.
ETA: Just to clarify: what I find offensive about the mentioned Hilter/Nazi banner isn't that it's anti-cloti. That, I just think is stupid, especially since -- intentionally or not -- it makes the anti-cloti people out to be the Nazis. I find it offensive that someone would use an image and phrase associated with one of the worst cases of racial and religious oppression IN THE WORLD as what I can only assume is a joke. A joke calling for the emulation of said behavior. At the very least, that's in very bad taste.
Ok, I really don't care whether you ship Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aerith. Whichever makes you happy. I know which one I ship, and I also know that the creators were purposely ambiguous in the game. If you want, you can ship Cloud/Barret and the game will give you "evidence" to support that, because they allowed you to go on a date with the man! Unless Nomura or some such comes out and explicitly states that Cloud loves <whoever>, and then goes on to explain that he loves <whoever> in an explicitly romantic, wants-her-to-have-his-babies way, this is a debate that nobody can win. And he better not use any ambiguous words. Anywhere. (People are arguing over what "koibito" means, and that one is literally "love person" so how confusing can it be?) And whoever makes the statement better be someone everyone believes has the authority to make said statement, or it'll just change the argument to whether our spokesperson is a reliable source.
Ahem. Anyway...
What I do care is that everytime I go to look up some facts -- so I can base my fiction, however loosely, on things that happened in the movie and games -- I run into this Clerith/Cloti war. Case in point? To the best of my knowledge, Marlene does not have a wolf ring. However, I read a comment somewhere that she does, so I went looking for a reference as to where you can see it in the movie. Instead, I found an extensive essay that claims to conclusively prove that people like myself are idiots, because there's no basis for Cloud/Tifa in the movie or games.
Most of what I read made me laugh, because the author used every trick in the book to win an argument on the basis of their ability to argue, and throw around volumes of information. This is sort of the same idea as someone winning an argument by talking faster and louder and longer than anyone else. They didn't really prove their point, or support their thesis... they just wore everyone else out. The author of said essay quoted only partial phrases, ignored phrases that disagreed with their opinion, and liberally sprinkled the whole with insulting/condescending remarks. What makes this particularly funny, to me, is that as ambiguous as the source material is, they could have "proven" their point without resorting to any of these tricks. It just wouldn't have convinced anyone who didn't already agree... but I doubt the one I found does either, so let's avoid the logical fallacies, name calling, and casting of aspersions.
Which is what upset me. The repeated use of "CloTis do this" and "CloTis say that". Where, please tell me, do these "CloTis" reside, as I have yet to encounter them. And I'm looking for them, 'cause I'd like them to provide me with something to read! Looking for images of Cloud and Tifa, I found a whole passel of "anti-cloti" banners; out of curiousity, I did a search for anti-clerith on the same site and found NOTHING. A search for "proof of Cloud/Tifa" on Google calls up a few fan sites (like the cloti community on Fanfiction.net) and -- surprise, surprise -- another essay attempting to prove that Cloud/Tifa is impossible. Yep. Another pro-Clerith essay. Except for a few polls and such -- in which both pairings had a very good showing -- I haven't seen much of anything in the way of discussion. Certainly nothing even approaching the vehemence with which people try to "prove" that Cloud/Aerith is canon, and that Tifa was just somewhere in the background. Nothing that meets the description of "rabid CloTis". But I have found several long rants and/or essays explaining why Clerith is canon, Cloti is crack, and implying that any Cloti fan is a rabid psycho. I'm actually really curious now, and would like to read whatever it is that the authors of these Clerith essays are responding to.
If CloTi fans are crawling out of the woodwork, with a huge 'net presence, why are the ones I know saying they can't find anything to read?
From what I've seen, the Clerith supporters are far more "rabid". As evidence I point to the aforementioned anti-cloti banners. Particularly the really offensive one which quotes Hitler and calls for the oppression of Cloti fans. Maybe they find that funny under the rock you crawled out from under, but there's nothing cute or clever or funny about it. It's just in extremely poor taste.
If there are "rabid CloTis" out there, looking for a fight, then it would be good for them to shut-up and quit giving the rest of us a bad name. But the rabid Clerith ones need to take their medicine, too. And yes, it still counts as rabid when you write pages and pages and pages on the subject, even if we can't see the foam.
I am not a rabid CloTi fan. I'm not interested in trying to prove that my position is valid -- beyond stating that I formed it from watching Advent Children alone (I had never played the game), so therefore it is possible to get Cloud/Tifa from the movie without having any preconcieved notions. This is not saying my position is right and yours is wrong. It's simply saying it can happen, so quit claiming it's not possible.
I am a cloti fan who would like to be able to do a search for info without finding anti-cloti propaganda. Particularly when I'm not even looking for anything cloti-related! Think of them as ice cream flavors, and Clerith is your favorite, and Cloti is mine. You wouldn't feel the need to write a diatribe about how crazy it was to like chocolate ice cream, just because you don't, would you?
Why can't we just agree to disagree and enjoy the fact that it's a great story, with great characters and great art?
Oh, and yeah, I didn't have to read it. Which is why I stopped after awhile. There is always the chance that they'll say something useful when quoting their "proof", though, so I did try to skim. All I found out, though (relating to rings, anyway) is that engagement rings are only ever worn on the left hand. Who knew? And that's probably snarky enough without me saying anything more.
ETA: Just to clarify: what I find offensive about the mentioned Hilter/Nazi banner isn't that it's anti-cloti. That, I just think is stupid, especially since -- intentionally or not -- it makes the anti-cloti people out to be the Nazis. I find it offensive that someone would use an image and phrase associated with one of the worst cases of racial and religious oppression IN THE WORLD as what I can only assume is a joke. A joke calling for the emulation of said behavior. At the very least, that's in very bad taste.
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 02:57 am (UTC)From:Sometimes I think Clerith people are so defensive because Clerith is dead, so they are shipping a couple of the past. It reminds me of people getting all prickly about Kaoru vs Tomoe (which I have been known to do...) and then remembering that Tomoe is dead so the argument doesn't even matter.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 02:57 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 03:15 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2009-03-04 09:27 pm (UTC)From:The crazies definitely need to chill. x_x
On a completely different note, Tae, I just want to say how much I enjoy your work and I hope you don't mind if I friend you! XD RK will always be my first love, which is how I came to read your stories a loooong time ago on your Akabeko site all the time, but my hubby and I started playing FFVII again for the heck of it and now I'm getting to read all your wonderful Cloud/Tifa fiction. ^_^
no subject
Date: 2009-03-05 06:47 am (UTC)From:Maybe someday I'll finish the unfinished stories at Yumi's Journal and the Akabeko. I'd like to think I will. The RK muse has gone mute, though. =( It won't even mime!
The FFVII muse, on the other hand, babbles constantly these days.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-04 03:06 pm (UTC)From:I say people should agree to disagree in cases like this; I'd choose a CloTi flavoured icecream over a Clerith flavoured icecream any day!
no subject
Date: 2009-03-05 06:55 am (UTC)From:I'm sorry about the role-playing =( I found a pair role-playing Cloud/Tifa here on LJ, but I really don't know how it works. Good luck on finding someone, though!
I like Zack/Aerith as well... I'm hoping to find time to write a short fic for them for
no subject
Date: 2009-03-07 12:42 pm (UTC)From:And Marlene did have a Cloudy Wolf ring. She gave it to Denzel, he wears it around his neck, you can see it in the movie. I can't recall the exact interview I read where that was brought up, but I do remember reading it.
Anytime I run into a rabid Clerith I usually smirk and laugh, but they are annoying. I try not to argue with them, because everyone has an opinion (wrong as they may be) and I'm entitled to mine--although they seem to think I'm not... anyway.
Nojima (the WRITER of both the game and movie) has more than once said that Cloud and Tifa were the intended romantic relationship and that they belong together. That's pretty much cemented proof of canon. However, Nomura (the director) relays that while Cloti was intended the resulting Love Triangle offered more for the fans (translation: more money for Square) and he has no intention of proclaiming one woman Cloud's true love. (This was before Advent Children was released, so AC:Complete may shed new light, given Crisis Core and the Zerith in it).
For me, it was never a question. From their first scene together, I knew Cloud and Tifa were it. :D
no subject
Date: 2009-03-07 07:47 pm (UTC)From:Can you point me to an instance of Nojima saying Cloud/Tifa ftw? I will read and bookmark it and reread it everytime I encounter another rabid clerith article =). I already asked (in another comment) about the Denzel/Marlene ring exchange, so I'll just reiterate that it would be lovely lovely too.
But please don't spend a lot of time on it! ^^;
no subject
Date: 2009-03-08 09:59 pm (UTC)From:really don't think Clerith makes sense. But I can't stand all the fighting... because let's face it, at the end of the day, it's a game. A game and a movie, not Terrorism or Rascism or something that really matters. It's just not worth getting that upset over it. =]
I can fully understand why some people ship Clerith. Not me though. =P
But like you, I've never met a RABID CloTi fan. I agree with Windrider; it seems pointless to try and prove our point, because to us, it's already proven. If Cleriths are so insecure that their point isn't obvious enough to not need explaining, then maybe that's the answer right there. =P
I've not seen the Hitler Icon though. Isn't it sad that these people are comparing the people they disagree with over a computer game to Nazis? That's really low.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-08 11:17 pm (UTC)From:The banner is a pink swastika with the phrase "Seig Heil!" in large script over it, and then underneath is the phrase "OPPRESS THE CLOLTIS!!" So either the originator has a poor grasp of what they're actually saying and the connotations it has, or they approve of them. Either is rather disgusting. You can find it on photo bucket by searching for either "cloti" (how I originally found it) or "anti-cloti", although the second calls it up much faster.
In Germany, it is currently illegal to use "Seig Heil" as a written or verbal greeting.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-07 10:48 pm (UTC)From:http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2006/08/11/kingdom-hearts-ii-tetsuya-nomura-interview.htm
It doesn't explain much, but you could read a little into it and how Cloud and Tifa are tied together, even in another universe.
Also, about the ring, I've been reading that Tifa, Denzel, and Barret are the ones who have one. Various websites mention it, but I haven't been able to find a reliable source, which brings up the question on why Marlene doesn't have one. You think that it may be that she gave hers to Barret instead? Dunno how this helps the argument, but I did find it interesting. I'm off to see Advent Children to see if it's true that Barret has a ring.
Also, I whole heartedly agree with all that you've stated and while I was searching for Nojima's interview, a few anti-CloudTifa websites popped up. Everyone has different tastes and perspectives. I don't really appreciate it when someone tries to ram their opinion down my throat, so I generally leave them alone. Getting into arguments with the "rabid fans" just keeps the never-ending argument alive instead of letting it die. We should just ignore these people and let them fester in their poison and negativeness(is that a word?). Not everyone HAS to have the same opinion because we're all different and we should act like civilized people and ignore the jerks. These days you can find more people to trul talk about the CloudTifa ship with so don't feel so bad. I've got a few friends who like CloudAerith and it doesn't mean that we'll automatically tear each other's throat. There will always be jerks out there, and as long as we don't act like them, I think we're good.
Besides... we know that Cloud belongs with Tifa, right? :D
no subject
Date: 2009-04-08 03:15 am (UTC)From:Tifa, Denzel and Barret definitely have rings in the movie. Denzel's is on a string or chain around his neck; Tifa and Barret are wearing theirs on their hands. I've been told that Marlene had a ring, and gave it to Denzel as a gesture of 'welcome to the family'. It's supposed to be mentioned in an interview. I have yet to find it, but I like this explanation. It makes sense, as they could have easily received/purchased the rings before Denzel came along; and Marlene is sweet enough that she would do something like that to make him feel more at home.
I was tickled to find almost the exact opposite of this rant posted on the final fantasy rant community here on LJ. It was posted back in 2005 I think. They were quickly told that it wasn't all one way, and I got the impression that at the time of that post, the back and forth was more rampant. At some point, though, the cloti side subsided and the clerith side is still hanging on like a rabid terrier (judging by the traces still out there). It's very silly.
My beta is actually a Cloud/Aerith fan. =D She likes Cloud/Tifa, too, but prefers Aerith based on the original game. I figure that's a good thing: if I can write a Cloud/Tifa fic that she loves...
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 09:28 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Thank you
Date: 2010-03-04 05:43 am (UTC)From: